Fade Stab [Low Priority]

loMe
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4 September 2015 - 12:28 EDT
#1
Complaint:
-Fade Stab is probably the most useless third hive ability for any life form.
-Timing it takes for the attack to execute is hard to land accurately.
-Too slow of an attack.
-Not worth the opportunity cost of other 3rd tier upgrades.

Solutions/Ideas:
Idea #1 - Fix Timings + Buff
-Reduce Stab delay between command and execution to be closer to that of Swipe, but implement a 1.5 second cooldown.
-Increase Stab's effectiveness vs armor.
-Remove hiss connected with executing Stab ability

Idea #2 - Acid Rockets
-Replace the ability with Acid Rockets to help Fades vs armor.
-Acid Rockets only damage Marine Armor, cost a lot of energy to use, and have a straight trajectory and a medium speed so Marines can dodge it.


I don't think we have any great solutions to the complaints just yet, but maybe we could generate something from discussions. Personally I don't think Idea #1 will make Stab much more viable or attractive for a 3rd tier ability, and Acid Rockets is gonna be hugely unpopular and would require significant balance testing.
PinkTurtle
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4 September 2015 - 21:11 EDT
#2
Stab used to be useful back when we had vortex. Now that we don't have vortex stab seems useless as it goes against the way you usually play fade. And in my opinion it should never be used. And I'm curios as to why it haven't been removed from the game yet. As people will use it. As they don't know better.
In regards to acid rocket it sounds like a way to turn fades in to gorges. And I'm not particular fond of that idea. However. Acid rocket would be a big help versus something like exos.
In many ways I think that the fade is already strong in many ways. While keeping it fair for the marines.
If people can think of a way to fix it. Then I'll be impressed. But looking for an alternative just to have something else seems stupid.
Stab is outdated. And for good reason. But that doesn't mean that something else have to replace it in any way. NS2 is about team work. And aliens already have all the tools they need to win.

For now I would personally like stab removed with no alternative.
Kash
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4 September 2015 - 22:54 EDT
#3
I dislike the acid rocket idea, I would rather see Stab reworked and become useful... the cooldown will stop it being overpowered and make it more skill based, because if you miss, you have to wait until you can use it again so you're stuck with plain old swipe.

I vote for Altered stab, no remove, no acid rocket.
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WhySoSerious
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5 September 2015 - 04:24 EDT
#4
Aimee says
Stab used to be useful back when we had vortex. Now that we don't have vortex stab seems useless as it goes against the way you usually play fade.


I agree with Aimee.
And that brings the questions:
Why was vortex removed?
Can we bring it back?

Chocapix
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5 September 2015 - 07:54 EDT
#5
Remove metabolise as 2nd attack (but keep it as the shift key ability) and bring the vortex back as 2nd attack.
NS2 quotes :
"We need an exo ! With gatling and shit !"
"C'mon Onos ! Move your fat ass !"
"I need a medical bag"
"Dude ! Grab your balls and let's push maintenance !"
PinkTurtle
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5 September 2015 - 08:45 EDT
#6
Didn't think of it in my first reply.
But now I want vortex back as a second attack. While keeping meta on the shift key. (never understood why meta was on the second attack anyway. Only made me confuse when I had pressed the wrong button by mistake)

I don't remember if vortex was removed before the implementation of biomass. But perhaps get vortex on biomass 6 and then maybe move stab to biomass 8 if needed.

Implementing vortex again would make stab viable. And also make for more interesting and advanced fade play. My only concern is the players who will say this is OP. To which I'm not too sure about.

Vortex might also make adrenaline more viable for fade play as celerity is the most useful now.
Pelargir
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5 September 2015 - 10:04 EDT
#7
What vortex version are you talking about? I recall there were two different versions. One preventing the enemy to attack, meaning he wasn't able to hit neither to take damages from the Aliens. And a second version that allowed Fades to teleport on the field (funny ability). None of them were really used so they were removed. However, bringing it back would be quite interesting and we could see more use of this ability, whatever it is.

Stab has always been useless. Keep or remove it, there will be no difference and no big deal.

Yet, something to clear things up. Why would you change those abilities since the current Fade isn't unbalanced, it's even quite the opposite. I'm all for bringing back former capacities but I don't see the point to strengthen even more Fades. And Aliens in a whole.
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PinkTurtle
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5 September 2015 - 10:12 EDT
#8
Pelargir says
What vortex version are you talking about?


Pretty sure people are meaning the one that teleports the fade.
That's what I'm referring to.

I've only seen the other vortex function in NS2 combat. And it seemed kinda useless.

WhySoSerious
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5 September 2015 - 10:20 EDT
#9
Pelargir says
What vortex version are you talking about?

I guess we were all thinking about teleport Vortex as it was later in the game.
IMO it might be strong as a combo with stab.

Pelargir says
Yet, something to clear things up. Why would you change those abilities since the current Fade isn't unbalanced, it's even quite the opposite. I'm all for bringing back former capacities but I don't see the point to strengthen even more Fades. And Aliens in a whole.


Stab is a 3rd hive ability so it should work as a game finnisher I suppose.

Aimee says

I've only seen the other vortex function in NS2 combat. And it seemed kinda useless.

Can't agree with that. Getting 1 or even 2 marines (with standard 2 fade play) out of combat is a pretty big thing.
This vortex might be just too powerful.
Wob
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6 September 2015 - 12:43 EDT
#10
What are you fixing with introducing vortex?

Please try and formulate your ideas instead of just going "this is nice"
WhySoSerious
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6 September 2015 - 13:48 EDT
#11
Vortex let's you get out of combat after successful or not stab, that's my main reason for getting it back.
There is few more utilities that I can think of.
I suppose opinions of fade players would be best here.
Wob
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6 September 2015 - 14:35 EDT
#12
WhySoSerious says
Vortex let's you get out of combat after successful or not stab, that's my main reason for getting it back.
There is few more utilities that I can think of.
I suppose opinions of fade players would be best here.


I'm aware of how the ability works. What are you trying to fix?
WhySoSerious
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6 September 2015 - 16:33 EDT
#13
Wob says
WhySoSerious says
Vortex let's you get out of combat after successful or not stab, that's my main reason for getting it back.
There is few more utilities that I can think of.
I suppose opinions of fade players would be best here.


I'm aware of how the ability works. What are you trying to fix?


So stab can be useful? Wasn't that what we were trying to achieve?
Wob
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6 September 2015 - 16:42 EDT
#14
WhySoSerious says
Wob says
WhySoSerious says
Vortex let's you get out of combat after successful or not stab, that's my main reason for getting it back.
There is few more utilities that I can think of.
I suppose opinions of fade players would be best here.


I'm aware of how the ability works. What are you trying to fix?


So stab can be useful? Wasn't that what we were trying to achieve?


That's not a fix, that's changing something for the sake of changing something.

Don't fix something that 'aint broke.

If there is a legitimate balance problem there should be a fix.

I'd argue that 3-3 marines are super strong vs fades and that they need an ability to help them should lerks be dead (which is pretty common at 3-3). The strength of the marine lies in 5 swipes at armor 3 + 1 medpack so maybe we can make stab work if we just make it a little easier to pull off. It is a 3rd hive ability and 160 dmg isn't to be sniffed at.
Chocapix
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7 September 2015 - 07:18 EDT
#15
I think we all agree on that : stab works better with a (teleport) vortex.

Why ? Because of stab itself.

Imo stab force the player to be very "static" as a fade, instead of blinking around dodging shots with speed and swiping, making him a very easy target to take down.
The point with the vortex is to allow the fade to go to safety right after the stab compare to a blink - swip - jump which allow the fade to preserve his speed and run away faster.

And like I said and Aimee also point it out, what's the point in having the special alien movement ability as the 2nd attack here with a fade ?
NS2 quotes :
"We need an exo ! With gatling and shit !"
"C'mon Onos ! Move your fat ass !"
"I need a medical bag"
"Dude ! Grab your balls and let's push maintenance !"
Kash
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7 September 2015 - 09:58 EDT
#16
Chocapix says
Imo stab force the player to be very "static" as a fade, instead of blinking around dodging shots with speed and swiping, making him a very easy target to take down.


If you remove the charge up and give it a 1 second cooldown, you would be able to blink around etc as normal. you remove the hiss and you can now still land that surprise attack. Increase its effectiveness vs armour and 3 - 3 marines aren't as difficult to deal with...

Vortex is unneeded and would provide fades a mechanic to teleport to safety, making them way more difficult to kill.

I'm 100% against Vortex being brought back... just tweak stab, there is no reason to add things (re-add things) just so 1 ability works... the knock on effect would be too big for such a small alteration.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
maxamus
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7 September 2015 - 10:19 EDT
#17
The 1st version of Vortex was very annoying and more powerfull than most people knew, being able to take marines out off the fight, stoping a PG from working or an OBS, was quite strong (off course there was ways to counter it but that dont matter)

2nd version Teleport. At this time it would be far to strong to have that brought back, it wont fix anything, but would make it slightly less balanced for marines to fight.

If there was a change to be made, perhaps change it so that its instant BUT it sorta slows the fade down (not to a complete walk like it used to) and then give it a cooldown, meaning it is not gonna be fades blinking in and out every few seconds doing 160 damage and killing everything. Maybe a 30sec cool down? maybe less, maybe more, would need to be tested.
Wob
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7 September 2015 - 11:32 EDT
#18
Chocapix says
I think we all agree on that : stab works better with a (teleport) vortex.

Why ? Because of stab itself.

Imo stab force the player to be very "static" as a fade, instead of blinking around dodging shots with speed and swiping, making him a very easy target to take down.
The point with the vortex is to allow the fade to go to safety right after the stab compare to a blink - swip - jump which allow the fade to preserve his speed and run away faster.

And like I said and Aimee also point it out, what's the point in having the special alien movement ability as the 2nd attack here with a fade ?


You're still just saying that this ability sucks because it sucks. You need to say what your changes does to a fade, its power in general, and the balance between the two teams.

Why does a fade need to have a more worth while 3rd tech ability?
Why do you want to buff a fade who has the 3rd hive ability?
What is the issue with aliens vs marines at 3rd hive timing, and more importantly what is the issue with fades vs marines at 3rd hive timing?

There is no point changing the third hive ability to something that is used more often because it's stronger than what we have now and more useful than what we have now, if it just gives aliens a massive buff across the board of skill. That is the definition of "changing things for the sake of change"
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7 September 2015 - 11:47 EDT
#19
If fades are having trouble then why is it that it seems to be happening right now?
Why not before? Did fades have an issue with marines say a year ago? I don't recall
anything being different in terms of balance from then and now.

You don't fix something by putting a band aid on it.
By adding vortex you're pretty much ignoring what the issue with stab is.
Nothing should be changed imo, not every ability has to be made viable.
PinkTurtle
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7 September 2015 - 11:59 EDT
#20
Zafod says
By adding vortex you're pretty much ignoring what the issue with stab is.
Nothing should be changed imo, not every ability has to be made viable.


I don't see the point of having an ability in the game that isn't viable. If it isn't viable it might as well be removed. If not changed.
BauerJankins
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7 September 2015 - 12:14 EDT
#21
When Aliens are unable to end a game when they got 3 hives up there's something wrong.
3rd hive abilities are so strong right now, there is really no need to have a new, strong stab. I understand people don't want techs that aren't viable, but you can't balance everything to be equally viable AND you can't give even more power to something that is so strong already. When you have 3 hives then use spores, stomp or xeno, we don't need a 160dmg USEFUL stab on top of that
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Kash
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7 September 2015 - 13:04 EDT
#22
BauerJankins says
When Aliens are unable to end a game when they got 3 hives up there's something wrong.
3rd hive abilities are so strong right now, there is really no need to have a new, strong stab. I understand people don't want techs that aren't viable, but you can't balance everything to be equally viable AND you can't give even more power to something that is so strong already. When you have 3 hives then use spores, stomp or xeno, we don't need a 160dmg USEFUL stab on top of that


That is assuming you have onos + lerks up... if your onos and lerks go down due to JPs and 3 - 3 marines... the fade stab is what you fall back on... currently, its not even getting researched because nobody uses it because it sucks.

Also, why is it okay to say stomp = great 3rd hive ability... spores = great third hive ability... xeno = great hive ability... Stab = nah, nope, nada, don't research, useless...
Stab isn't even considered as a possibility... Like Aimee said, it should, in its current state, just be removed... which means that other than biomass, fades hit their peak at advanced metab/biomass 5... yet lerks/skulks/onos and even to some extent gorges continue to progress into the third hive.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
Wob
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7 September 2015 - 13:24 EDT
#23
Kash says
Like Aimee said, it should, in its current state, just be removed... which means that other than biomass, fades hit their peak at advanced metab/biomass 5... yet lerks/skulks/onos and even to some extent gorges continue to progress into the third hive.


Does that mean fades NEED a 3rd hive ability or one that makes them stronger?

Please try to think of balance reasons and not symmetry or homogeneity reasons like "every other lifeform has one.."


EDIT: That's not necessarily aimed at you Kash, it just so happened to be a good quote to use to explain how people should approach balance.
Mephilles
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7 September 2015 - 14:48 EDT
#24
well the statistical balance won't get changed that much tbh since aliens on 3 hives usually have already won the game. Meaning a 3 hive alien team with a marine team that is able to fight back is a really rare situation. So all we can think about if that makes 3 hive aliens too OP or not. I haven't even a real idea if all tech marines vs all tech aliens is balanced in general.

But with exos and jetpacks stomp is basically disabled, and exos are not effected by spores either. So what do aliens have to deal with like... 2 minigun exos at once? I believe in situations like that aliens might need a buff (with the new stab maybe?). However that is on the assumption that all tech marines are stronger than all tech aliens
Kash
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7 September 2015 - 19:18 EDT
#25
Mephilles says
But with exos and jetpacks stomp is basically disabled, and exos are not effected by spores either. So what do aliens have to deal with like... 2 minigun exos at once? I believe in situations like that aliens might need a buff (with the new stab maybe?). However that is on the assumption that all tech marines are stronger than all tech aliens


Bilebomb.

Wob says
Does that mean fades NEED a 3rd hive ability or one that makes them stronger?


Of course it doesn't mean one is "needed" but while thinking of balance, should we not try to make each lifeform balanced in the sense that each hive brings something extra? or do fades just have to deal with falling short at that point in the game?
I understand the idea that all thoughts etc should be focused on making the game in general more balanced for win ratio/team strength... but I don't see why an ability that is already in the game should go totally unused without being looked at... You yourself looked at GLs and are trying to debate changing their function to 1. make them more viable, and 2. fix low skill marine play.
Changing stab would combat the 3 - 3 Marine vs Fade situation (while it rarely occurs, it does still happen from time to time)... i'm against adding vortex, it would cause to many imbalances, but tweaking stab seems like a justifiable change to me.

Even if it is as simple as:

- remove hiss
- remove charge up delay
- add 1 - 1.5 second cooldown

at the very least I think the change could/should be tested.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
Wob
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8 September 2015 - 02:55 EDT
#26
Kash says

Wob says
Does that mean fades NEED a 3rd hive ability or one that makes them stronger?


Of course it doesn't mean one is "needed" but while thinking of balance, should we not try to make each lifeform balanced in the sense that each hive brings something extra? or do fades just have to deal with falling short at that point in the game?


I don't think fades are particularly weak that they absolutely need something. The 3-3 marine issue is something I feel could easily be rationalised by saying that 3-3 marines should be very difficult to kill and that there does need to be lerks on the field to help chip armor and to stop skulks whoring pres to go onos. I'm happy to say that 3-3 marines should probably be stronger than fades at ALL points in the game, 3rd hive included. I only brought up the issue of 3-3 marines being hard to kill because it's true they are, I just want to hear other people's thoughts on it.

I also think that it's a joke to want to give them something just so they benefit from the third hive like all the other lifeforms.

Kash says

I understand the idea that all thoughts etc should be focused on making the game in general more balanced for win ratio/team strength... but I don't see why an ability that is already in the game should go totally unused without being looked at... You yourself looked at GLs and are trying to debate changing their function to 1. make them more viable, and 2. fix low skill marine play.


I only cared about trying to fix low skill marine play without making GL super strong at high skill play. I'm not inclined to change FT to make it just as viable as a SG. Likewise, I'm not inclined to change fade 3rd ability just to make it used more often. It needs to be a fix/counter to something.
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8 September 2015 - 03:56 EDT
#27
Wob says
I'm not inclined to change fade 3rd ability just to make it used more often. It needs to be a fix/counter to something.


Then i'm going to have to agree with aimee... why not just remove it then?.. it doesn't get used, it doesn't get researched, people don't like nor want to use it regardless of scenario...

But imo, why remove something that can be tweaked to make it viable... "but what does it fix", it fixes the fact that we currently have an ability to be researched and used, that sits on the aliens strongest part of a game, that never gets even looked at. You may not see that as an issue, but this is a loop...

"changing it doesn't fix a specific in game issue" - "then remove it"... "options are good" - "then keep stab and tweak it"
"changing it doesn't fix a specific in game issue" - "then remove it"... "options are good" - "then keep stab and tweak it"
"changing it doesn't fix a specific in game issue" - "then remove it"... "options are good" - "then keep stab and tweak it"

so on and so forth.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
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8 September 2015 - 04:37 EDT
#28
I just want to know one thing, why did Stab even got implemented in the first place? It was never in NS1, and why should it be in NS2? Feels like a (sorry to say retarded) "feature" that was never really talked about.

And yes for solution back to NS1 with acid rocket, what i remember i never say people complain that much about it! + it brings back some fun into the game with fade.

Right now its just use meto and swipe ... real fun - . -

Or like Wob said "Fix stab so it's actually managable to use in fights"

BauerJankins
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8 September 2015 - 08:36 EDT
#29
Can you people please think about BALANCE instead of just trying to make some things more viable? What do you think an instant 160 damage ability would do to this game? Marines are having a real hard time to stay in the game when aliens are on 3 hives, it rarely happens that marines manage to come back into the game, because stomp is op, spores are op, xeno is op. Now think about what happens when fades can suddenly do this insta-160dmg-stab thing. I don't think I'll have to explain this further, because it's really obvious.

I can only repeat what has been said so many times already - don't change things for the sake of change, BALANCE the game. If people don't want the unchanged stab to stay in the game then so be it, remove it. Although I don't see the point in removing an ability only because it's rarely used, it would just create a bigger gap between compmod and vanilla ns2 again.

We really have more pressing concerns than stab, just saying..
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8 September 2015 - 09:33 EDT
#30
BauerJankins says
We really have more pressing concerns than stab, just saying..


+1
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